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dubai_suzie

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Anyone have insight on this?
 

amygdalE

Member
Anyone have insight on this?
It's called "chrismation" relatively to the Orthodox Church, a ritual adopted by the Catholic Church and is called "cresima" in Italian. In both cases, the key concept is Chrisma or Anointing with blessed oil whereby the anointed person receives the Holy Ghost and his gifts (wisdom etc.) An online article says that in the early Church, there was an immediate succession of baptism, chismation, and eucharistic partaking. However, I have not found any cogent explanation why there should be a chrismation at all after baptism which supposedly restores a person to the original state of grace. //Originally it was adults that were baptised, etc. When they started baptising babies and fathers were not present, some person was chosen to take the place of a father (called "compare" in Italian). The baby is asked various questions and either the father or the compare answers for him: he acts by proxy. Quod quaeris? (What are you seeking? -- Salutem aeternam (eternal salvation). What do you believe? -- I believe in God almighty... //Then the baptism (either by immersion or by pouring water) is performed.// When a youngster comes of age, around puberty, he is asked to personally confirm his faith, wherefore, in English, chrismation is called Confirmation; he becomes a Christian by his own choice rather than by proxy. This is my opinion. Once I heard or read a stupid alternative: The anointing makes one a soldier of Christ... hence, in medieval history, a Templar (technically called Miles Christi -- a soldier of Christ, instituted by Bernard of Clairveaux, who sent a small troup to the conquered Jerusalem in order to find the lost Ark of the Covenant, but this is a different story).
 
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paharo45

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It's called "chrismation" relatively to the Orthodox Church, a ritual adopted by the Catholic Church and is called "cresima" in Italian. In both cases, the key concept is Chrisma or Anointing with blessed oil whereby the anointed person receives the Holy Ghost and his gifts (wisdom etc.) An online article says that in the early Church, there was an immediate succession of baptism, chismation, and eucharistic partaking. However, I have not found any cogent explanation why there should be a chrismation at all after baptism which supposedly restores a person to the original state of grace. //Originally it was adults that were baptised, etc. When they started baptising babies and fathers were not present, some person was chosen to take the place of a father (called "compare" in Italian). The baby is asked various questions and either the father or the compare answers for him: he acts by proxy. Quod quaeris? (What are you seeking? -- Salutem aeternam (eternal salvation). What do you believe? -- I believe in God almighty... //Then the baptism (either by immersion or by pouring water) is performed.// When a youngster comes of age, around puberty, he is asked to personally confirm his faith, wherefore, in English, chrismation is called Confirmation; he becomes a Christian by his own choice rather than by proxy. This is my opinion. Once I heard or read a stupid alternative: The anointing makes one a soldier of Christ... hence, in medieval history, a Templar (technically called Miles Christi -- a soldier of Christ, instituted by Bernard of Clairveaux, who sent a small troup to the conquered Jerusalem in order to find the lost Ark of the Covenant, but this is a different story).
Where did you get this from? I would love to read more :)
 

amygdalE

Member
I am sorry I am unable to cite written sources. My mention of Italian words and matters are due to the fact that I was born and raised in Italy. (In my high school in Rome, we studied Latin, classical Greek, Greek literature in translation, a modern foreign language, in my case French and then English.) Especially later, I made researches into many fields of occasional interest and, for instance, I read the words that are used during baptism in the Latin rite. I learned about ancient Roman customs and practices, such as a father's proxy [on behalf] function: if a child destroys somebody's property, his father has to pay for the damages, etc. Especially for "chrismation" as one of the received sacraments, I learned from the just consulted Wikipedia. I mentioned the Templars incidentally but unnecessarily. Many years ago, I researched extensively the Templars and, to begin with, tried of find the real causes of the Crusades and the occupation of Jerusalem in 1099; I used 4 videotapes by British researchers (Hamilton; Lincoln) about the Ark, Rennes-le-chateau, the Sauniere priest, etc. [I prepared an article -- a sort of linguistic detective story -- and posted it in a now defunct Yahoo Community.] / One thing I had thought of adding above: The English equivalent of It. "compare" [or "cumpa`" in some dialects] is "godfather" but, through some movies, this word now means "leader/chief of a mafia family". The name "mafia or maffia" was derived in Sicily from "mapsios" (insensitive), which became corrupted into "maffios[o]" -- to designate a certain blackmailing or criminal person. (That's my own etymology.)
 
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paharo45

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I am sorry I am unable to cite written sources. My mention of Italian words and matters are due to the fact that I was born and raised in Italy. (In my high school in Rome, we studied Latin, classical Greek, Greek literature in translation, a modern foreign language, in my case French and then English.) Especially later, I made researches into many fields of occasional interest and, for instance, I read the words that are used during baptism in the Latin rite. I learned about ancient Roman customs and practices, such as a father's proxy [on behalf] function: if a child destroys somebody's property, his father has to pay for the damages, etc. Especially for "chrismation" as one of the received sacraments, I learned from the just consulted Wikipedia. I mentioned the Templars incidentally but unnecessarily. Many years ago, I researched extensively the Templars and, to begin with, tried of find the real causes of the Crusades and the occupation of Jerusalem in 1099; I used 4 videotapes by British researchers (Hamilton; Lincoln) about the Ark, Rennes-le-chateau, the Sauniere priest, etc. [I prepared an article -- a sort of linguistic detective story -- and posted it in a now defunct Yahoo Community.] / One thing I had thought of adding above: The English equivalent of It. "compare" [or "cumpa`" in some dialects] is "godfather" but, through some movies, this word now means "leader/chief of a mafia family". The name "mafia or maffia" was derived in Sicily from "mapsios" (insensitive), which became corrupted into "maffios[o]" -- to designate a certain blackmailing or criminal person. (That's my own etymology.)
This is so interesting thank you, I think I may take your information and do a bit more research on Wikipedia. I wish I had learned so much in school just like you, the European education system is far superior, especially in terms of language and culture.
 

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